Tables vs CSS - Page 3

**pikaflash** · August 6th, 2004, 1:53 AM

thanks a lot for the links, i want to start a new site and want to make it with css to learn how to use them :hiding:

by the way, what about program like style master? how useful could be to understand how css work?

VTJustinB · August 6th, 2004, 2:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imsleepy

Justin! who are you!

That was great! You should publish that! It was very informative. Wish I could write a post like that on the fly. When I write something that long it just zig-zags all over the place... this thought that thought those thoughts... a big jumbled mess.

If you tell me you are one of those 15yr olds too I think I will go shoot myself! LOL. Not really. I am just always amazed what these kids know.

Very good post. You sold me!

Thanks, and no, haha, I'm not 15--I'm a 23 year old soon-to-be master's candidate in computer science at Virginia Tech.

VTJustinB · August 6th, 2004, 2:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haugland

I agree with imsleepy. That was a very informative post. I think you've definetly persuaded me to at least try to learn using full CSS for designs and layouts. Quite honestly I try to build for the more modern browsers and certain previous versions that are still largely in affect.

Now I assume that since using CSS is to be standards compliant that I should be using strict xhtml as well?

Should be starting that site hopefully within a week.

Thank you for that very motivating post!

I encourage strict XHTML development with CSS just because if you don't, browsers handle your CSS extremely inconsistently. Most browsers assume that with an XHTML doctype that you are trying to adhere to standards, and therefore will render your browser in standards mode. If you don't provide a valid doctype in that sense most browsers go into a "quirks mode" which attempts to allow some slack in how your CSS rendered and it ends up just looking bad most of the time. Use a valid doctype, I suggest xhtml transitional until you know CSS better. That's what that doctype is there for, to help people transition away from presentational HTML by allowing some (but not many) presentational attributes on tags.

If you guys want to get started on CSS then these links are quintessential:

http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/ - the CSS master himself
http://www.mezzoblue.com/css/cribsheet/ - The everhandy CSS crib sheet
http://www.alistapart.com/topics/css/ - articles on CSS by some of the masters
http://www.stopdesign.com/log/category/css/ - doug bowman's blog, an amazing css guru
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ - Eric Meyer's CSS Wiki -- the mecca of CSS info
http://www.mako4css.com/index.htm - CSS Shark's CSS FAQ
http://www.brainjar.com/css/using/ - great beginner CSS tutorial
http://www.westciv.com/style_master/...ion/index.html - a great and entrie book on CSS online

There are lots more but those are all good places to start.

Have fun.

Justin

**gonzo** · August 17th, 2004, 6:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sam

theres pluses / minuses with both.

i like a hybrid approach. you can build tables, and then apply style sheets for the formatting.

if you go 100 percent CSS you will find lots and lots of your time will be spent trying to make things work the same way in every browser.

I disagree 100%, Just yesterday I redid a site that is built on tables that Mozilla just murders it, everything is out of whack, The new site is based on a few divs about 3-4 of them and views properly across all browsers. They look identical but the code is much lighter over the table one. I just code for Firefox and all other browsers work.

**Rai** · August 17th, 2004, 8:31 PM

I definately agree with Justin about using standards on websites and XHTML doctyping. Of course, I've yet to be able to go completely strict due to one or two things I can't seem to translate from "IE programming" to universal.

For anyone who is programming to IE... bad bad bad. My suggest it program to Firefox, and you'll be looking great in almost every other browser. That's my most recent discovery anyways with all my web designing. (which reading back on other comments after I wrote that, I see Gonzo said much of the same)

And what is wrong with being a 15 year old that knows what they're talking about??? :P Okay, I'm not quite 15 anymore... and I don't quite feel like writing an overly clear reply so I may not seem to smrt... but I have been doing web design since I was about 11, so by 15 I did know a thing or two about it! Okay, so I'm just being a rambling idiot now.. Though I think it's a great accomplishment what I can do with websites (though I don't often show it off too well...) considering the fact I'm a History and Political Science major who despises computers!

And for the people who are using old browsers... if they're at home, they should upgrade to this century. School computers are another story... But I tend to code to the most recent browser upgrades, as the most recent w3 standards are based on them. I think that's part of the whole reason for the browsers to put out upgrades, to comply with the standards that are being developed. Though life would be a lot easier with one universal browser... not like that's even a option.

And I'll stop my incoherent rambling now.

**gonzo** · August 17th, 2004, 9:24 PM

I dropped tables 1 month into web design and have never used them since. Kinda like quitting smoking, dropped a bad habit. I learned tables with DW and my trial was a month and have not used tables since. I do have default veiw set up for Firefox in my editors and find that if the sites behaves in FF, it does the same likewise in all other browsers.

H · August 17th, 2004, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gonzo

I disagree 100%, Just yesterday I redid a site that is built on tables that Mozilla just murders it, everything is out of whack, The new site is based on a few divs about 3-4 of them and views properly across all browsers. They look identical but the code is much lighter over the table one. I just code for Firefox and all other browsers work.

Coding for Opera will give just as good results. Sure, most people don't want to pay for Opera, but as a student it was only $20 USD which is easily feasible.

Quite honestly, I've yet to go completely to CSS/XHTML because I've not yet started a new project yet. And for the record. Code what you're comfortable with. If it works in all browsers and you've done it easily and comfortable, you're ahead of the game.

I certainly agree that people should update to the latest browsers available. Not because of basic things such as new web standards, but security of older browsers just isn't worth it. In a lot of places you can pick-up a used Pentium 2 or 3 capible of running Win 98 and IE6, Opera or Mozilla for a couple hundred dollars. As for schools, if they're smart they'll keep their software up-to-date.

**Rai** · August 17th, 2004, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haugland

Coding for Opera will give just as good results. Sure, most people don't want to pay for Opera, but as a student it was only $20 USD which is easily feasible.

Quite honestly, I've yet to go completely to CSS/XHTML because I've not yet started a new project yet. And for the record. Code what you're comfortable with. If it works in all browsers and you've done it easily and comfortable, you're ahead of the game.

I certainly agree that people should update to the latest browsers available. Not because of basic things such as new web standards, but security of older browsers just isn't worth it. In a lot of places you can pick-up a used Pentium 2 or 3 capible of running Win 98 and IE6, Opera or Mozilla for a couple hundred dollars. As for schools, if they're smart they'll keep their software up-to-date.

But why pay for a browser at all when you can get one like Firefox for free? Or if you have a slow internet, you can get the cd at $5.95. But hey, I'm cheap and poor, and refuse to pay for something where I can get an equivilant for free.

And as for schools... it'd be nice if they can keep their software up to date, but considering they're generally lucky to get semi-new hardware every 10 years.. and old computers do have problems running new systems. (I know... my 6 year old desktop goes through some really tough trials). But hey, in a perfect world, they would be.

**Bigjohn** · August 17th, 2004, 11:53 PM

Either way...

There will always be a place for tables. But it should be for data output, not for page formatting. CSS works great for formatting.

Design for 2 browsers, and you'll cover the majority. If you include Mozilla in that 'pair' you're going to keep 99% of netcrap users happy, and then use IE5 or 6 to get the other 94% of the internet....

So sorry, Mac guys, but thankfully Safari interprets very close to Firefox.

John

August 6th, 2004, 1:53 AM	#19 (permalink)
pikaflash (Nintendo girl) On a golden path... Joined in Sep 2003 Lives in Mexico city 323 posts Gave thanks: 4 Thanked 0 times	thanks a lot for the links, i want to start a new site and want to make it with css to learn how to use them :hiding: by the way, what about program like style master? how useful could be to understand how css work? __________________ ...the evolution continues! Anime Pokemon Pikachu Foros Postales DibuJarte Animekai Oekaki Anime Animated gifs, Kaoani Smilies and Japanese emoticons

August 17th, 2004, 8:31 PM	#23 (permalink)
Rai Senior Member Super #1 Joined in Nov 2003 Lives in Canada Hosted on Pass14 3,770 posts Gave thanks: 4 Thanked 20 times	I definately agree with Justin about using standards on websites and XHTML doctyping. Of course, I've yet to be able to go completely strict due to one or two things I can't seem to translate from "IE programming" to universal. For anyone who is programming to IE... bad bad bad. My suggest it program to Firefox, and you'll be looking great in almost every other browser. That's my most recent discovery anyways with all my web designing. (which reading back on other comments after I wrote that, I see Gonzo said much of the same) And what is wrong with being a 15 year old that knows what they're talking about??? :P Okay, I'm not quite 15 anymore... and I don't quite feel like writing an overly clear reply so I may not seem to smrt... but I have been doing web design since I was about 11, so by 15 I did know a thing or two about it! Okay, so I'm just being a rambling idiot now.. Though I think it's a great accomplishment what I can do with websites (though I don't often show it off too well...) considering the fact I'm a History and Political Science major who despises computers! And for the people who are using old browsers... if they're at home, they should upgrade to this century. School computers are another story... But I tend to code to the most recent browser upgrades, as the most recent w3 standards are based on them. I think that's part of the whole reason for the browsers to put out upgrades, to comply with the standards that are being developed. Though life would be a lot easier with one universal browser... not like that's even a option. And I'll stop my incoherent rambling now. __________________

August 17th, 2004, 11:53 PM	#27 (permalink)
Bigjohn minor deity Super #1 Joined in Apr 2004 Lives in Georgia Hosted on XEON 7,395 posts Gave thanks: 28 Thanked 94 times	Either way... There will always be a place for tables. But it should be for data output, not for page formatting. CSS works great for formatting. Design for 2 browsers, and you'll cover the majority. If you include Mozilla in that 'pair' you're going to keep 99% of netcrap users happy, and then use IE5 or 6 to get the other 94% of the internet.... So sorry, Mac guys, but thankfully Safari interprets very close to Firefox. John __________________ Proud to be a Surmunity Mod! XEON PASS60 PASS61 Make a fundamental difference! My Sites: Curious about Brewing Beer? Join the community! >>>>> Some Change is GOOD! Keep your paycheck! Support the Fair Tax Get into an Art museum Victorian London It's your brain -*ON WEB* - mybrainhost.com (under development) What SHOULD Government do? Much Less than it Does!

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August 17th, 2004, 9:24 PM	#24 (permalink)
gonzo ma Comfy Contributor Joined in Aug 2004 Lives in da beach 254 posts Gave thanks: 0 Thanked 0 times	I dropped tables 1 month into web design and have never used them since. Kinda like quitting smoking, dropped a bad habit. I learned tables with DW and my trial was a month and have not used tables since. I do have default veiw set up for Firefox in my editors and find that if the sites behaves in FF, it does the same likewise in all other browsers.

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