Dedicated Server Perfomance Questions....

blaze · December 22nd, 2004, 6:47 PM

Okay fellow surpassers -- some questions regarding going dedicated. Here's the deal:

I am currently under the pass11 reseller plan and I am growing VERY tired of sharing the server... so I am seriously considering about the possibility of upgrading to dedicated. Actually I will -- just not sure when, as I need to be more sure about the system I need.

My new company currently uses Mambo. We will be desigining packages based on the Mambo Core, hosting these sites, as well as developing a large directory from Mambo. So basically, Mambo will live and run on the server for about 90% of the sites we host (we don't have any clients yet.) Mambo is a CMS solution that uses MySQL and PHP for those who are not familiar.

Now, since we are just starting out and do not have clients yet, I need to know what is important to have on dedicated server to make sure things run smoothly. Please take into consideration that there is NO TRAFFIC yet; however, we expect to start around 500 page views a day and will likely increase that number by 10x in 3 months.

Now, I do not understand how servers function. But according to my numbers, would the smallest dedicated server (1.8 ghz celeron, 512MB ram) Surpass has be sufficient enough for us to start? Again, the traffic we expect is not that much, however, I am not sure what this server can handle if your site is Mambo and uses a lot of SQL queries (which ours will.) Not to mention, all the sites we will host will ALL be based on Mambo too. Currently Pass11 is a Dual Xeon with 1024MB of ram I believe... however, I am not satisified with access to the database and it seems VERY SLOW to me. I realize I am sharing this server and this could be why, but with having my own dedicated (1.8 ghz celeron) to myself, will there be THAT much of a major difference in speed and performance versus being on the dual xeon with about 400 other clients?

I am not looking for a canned response such as "Play it safe -- better go with a Pentium and 1024MB of ram." That answer doesn't help me. I need to know "how much" this server (the 1.8 ghz celeron) can handle, why, and what is the best recommendation for me to "start" with. I don't wish to upgrade and max out performance if I don't need it -- because too many people do that already and just throw away money. I am also not interested in finding the "cheapest" solution either. Bottom line, I just want to better educate myself and understand what I need, why I need it and what are the most important things to consider based on the info I explained. That's all.

Thanks and I appreciate all of your help! I would especially like to hear from some Surpass Techies that might be able to help me put together a good package.

**Emmanuel** · December 22nd, 2004, 9:56 PM

Hey Blaze

Glad to see you are looking into dedicated server.

We operate dual xeons due to the fact they can handle more users and take a good beating around.

However in your case a 1.8 celeron with 1024MB ram would be a good start. Mambo is pretty much mysql and php. those are the two elements which take up the most memory on a server.

Later down the road if you decide the server needs to be upgraded then it is rather easy. We simply use the same drives from your 1.7 celeron and put them on the P4 2.4 and eventually xeon.

Since you are an exsisting client I can waive the $99 setup fee so you can get that pricing structure.

Let me know if you are ready to go for it.

We will move all your sites on pass11 now for you so you will not have to do it. There will be no downtime involved since we will keep your sites on the reseller server until everything has propagated to your server.

I personally promise you will be satisfied with your own server to you and your sites

**Bigjohn** · December 22nd, 2004, 9:56 PM

If you want to know how servers work, I'll be happy to provide some 'plain engish' explanations.

The reason you want to start out with the pentium is upgradeability. You can start with one Xeon processor, and upgrade if needed. Upgrading is easier / better than replacing.

Mambo has proven to be pretty efficient - there was an article posted once about a simulated 'slashdotting' of a very dynamic site, and it did outstanding. So page loads should be fine at the rate you're indicating.

So, a single Xeon processor with 512mb ram would be a good, fairly efficient start. 1gb ram would be better, but initially you would not notice much of a difference at all.

Regards,
John

December 22nd, 2004, 10:02 PM

Quote:

- Starting out little, more traffic later

Well, I would start out with a P4 2.4 server and here is why over the Celeron.
1. The Celeron is decent for such task as an email server with 50 (people) accounts.

2. Mambo requires more horsepower on the things your going to do.

3. Celeron has a smaller cache (128/256k) compared to the P4 (512k) - the celeron is like a garden hose while the P4 is a fire hose. Step on the garden hose and it stops the water from coming out. Step on the firehose and it will slow but still have water came out.

Quote:

Now, I do not understand how servers function.

Think of the server like a hose (above answer) or a car. (no joke)

Quote:

But according to my numbers, would the smallest dedicated server (1.8 ghz celeron, 512MB ram) Surpass has be sufficient enough for us to start?

No, not on what you have in mind.

Quote:

major difference in speed and performance

Yes your going to have smoother performance then sharing a server

Quote:

I need to know "how much" this server (the 1.8 ghz celeron) can handle, why, and what is the best recommendation for me to "start" with.

It will not be able to handle what you want to throw at it. Yes it can catch a ball or two at a time but not 19 pitchers throwing a ball at it.

Quote:

Bottom line, I just want to better educate myself and understand what I need, why I need it and what are the most important things to consider based on the info I explained.

Think of the Celeron like a Chevy Geo compare to the P4 being a Toyota Camry.

Most important things are the cpu and ram.

CPU - the speed is really not important but whats under the hood. Cache is more important. Think of the cache size as a leaking bucket. 128/256k is that its dripping out. 512k is a hole in the bucket.

The Celeron chip is like a 4 cylinder engine
- It's good enough
-- to go to the post office and pick up your mail
-- pick up food from the grocery
-- and go to and from work by yourself

The P4 chip is like a V6 engine
It's good enough
--to go to the hardware store and get a ton of rock for your yard
--having a car pool of 8 to and from work

Now what you need is the P4 as I mention in the above answers. And now memory known as Ram.
The operating system needs 512mb of ram just to run
Mambo would need its own 512mb of ram to not hang the OS.

Minimal that you need is 1gb
Recommanded is 1.5gb from what you said, but wouldn't need that now, maybe later when more accounts are on the server.
2 gb of ram, not any time soon.

Now the OS

To have a lean OS; I would select FreeBSD over Redhat/Fedora.
1. Is that it's more advance
2. Only 650mb
3. Not Linux but it is based on BSD Unix.

Almost everything else would be the same, where you really wouldn't know the difference ie viewing your site, ftp, scripting, command-line and so on.

blaze · December 23rd, 2004, 3:16 AM

I appreciate all of you answers! Thank you kindly Emmanuel, Big John and OC12!

Emmanuel, I appreciate you waiving the setup fee. I am definitely going dedicated shortly. I just need to educate myself a bit more on the responsibility of leasing and taking care of a dedicated server -- as I am pretty much clueless in the entire environment (ie: troubleshooting, OS, etc.) Yes, I know they are managed -- but I still would like to know "what" exactly is my responsibility when leasing it from you? By responsibility, I am speaking about the server itself -- not support for my clients, etc. Also, on the prices listed for upgrading... it says upgrade 1024MB RAM for such and such dollars a month. Is that 1024MB of RAM in addition to the 512MB I already get? Or is that really just an additional 512MB to make it 1024? Another important issue is Security. I have heard many people on forums talk about having a firewall on the server, although many recommend not having it be software based. Am I to assume this is hardware then?? If yes, then do you agree and how does surpass handle security from DDOS attacks for the server?? Or is that my responsibility??

OC12 and Big John: You guys bring up some good points about the differences between P4 and Celeron, so I have a few more questions for you if you don't mind.

1) My main concern is speed. Not the pipeline, but fast access to query the database. Mambo is known to be the best CMS at delivering octane boost when it comes to querying the data -- however, I hardly notice this because there are plenty of times when my site "hangs" or takes a long time before finally delivering/posting the data when editing. It is important for you to note that this is during TWILIGHT hours too -- when the web is often free from high loads of traffic on Pass11. Is RAM an indicator of this? Cache?? Or maybe both???

2) Speaking of FreeBSD -- I am not familiar with any OS on servers. I only know of them by name and that most computer "geeks" favor FreeBSD over Redhat, while Redhat is the most commonly one used. I am not sure why -- but there appears to be a great trend over many forums where everybody seems to praise FreeBSD, yet WHY is Redhat more commonly used? Is it like the MAC and WINDOZ war where Mac is a better OS, but most software is made for windows, so people choose windows?

3) Based upon the advice form all of you, it's obvious Celeron is not the way to go. So let's say I start with a P4 (not dual) and 1024MB ram. How much can that kind of server handle according to traffic with a Mambo site? 500 users at once? 1000? 2000??

4) Going back to the RAM... why is Ram and Cache so important when using a site that queries a database?

Thanks for all the input. :-)

**Ehaanaes** · December 23rd, 2004, 5:54 AM

1.) Speed on my dedi is great.

I can set you up a small test-account if you want me to. So you can see surpass' real performance.

(Going on a trip to my grandmother today. So i won't be online for another 10 hours or so though.. but PM me.)

2. RedHat is easier if you ask me. And it's like the industry standard. Works great on my server.
But personally i prefer Gentoo Linux at home.

3. A P4 with 1Gig RAM should handle a LOT. Depends on the amount of queries. i guess.
Suppose Emmanuel can provide you with a better answer.

4. Because the queries use the RAM to store the info or something. Don't have a good explanation right now. Too tired. It's just the way it is.

**Bigjohn** · December 23rd, 2004, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blaze

I appreciate all of you answers! Thank you kindly Emmanuel, Big John and OC12!

yer welcome!

Quote:

Emmanuel, I appreciate you waiving the setup fee. I am definitely going dedicated shortly. I just need to educate myself a bit more on the responsibility of leasing and taking care of a dedicated server -- as I am pretty much clueless in the entire environment (ie: troubleshooting, OS, etc.) Yes, I know they are managed -- but I still would like to know "what" exactly is my responsibility when leasing it from you? By responsibility, I am speaking about the server itself -- not support for my clients, etc.

The difference between dedi and co-located is that surpass still helps manage / support the dedi. So for that, i recommend that you stay with the red-hat OS, since that is what they have the most experience supporting. If I'm not mistaken, you can ask them to set it up just the same way they would one of their own servers - basically selling you a 'dedicated' pass11...

Quote:

Also, on the prices listed for upgrading... it says upgrade 1024MB RAM for such and such dollars a month. Is that 1024MB of RAM in addition to the 512MB I already get? Or is that really just an additional 512MB to make it 1024?

Hmm. good question. Only Eman can answer that one...

Quote:

Another important issue is Security. I have heard many people on forums talk about having a firewall on the server, although many recommend not having it be software based. Am I to assume this is hardware then?? If yes, then do you agree and how does surpass handle security from DDOS attacks for the server?? Or is that my responsibility??

another reason to let them use the OS they're used to - and to have them configure it the way they do their own servers. They do have HARDWARE firewalls on the network, and since DDOS is a network based attack, they'd respond to it just as they do with the regular shared servers. There would be very little way for you to help on that anyway.

Quote:

OC12 and Big John: You guys bring up some good points about the differences between P4 and Celeron, so I have a few more questions for you if you don't mind.

1) My main concern is speed. Not the pipeline, but fast access to query the database. Mambo is known to be the best CMS at delivering octane boost when it comes to querying the data -- however, I hardly notice this because there are plenty of times when my site "hangs" or takes a long time before finally delivering/posting the data when editing. It is important for you to note that this is during TWILIGHT hours too -- when the web is often free from high loads of traffic on Pass11. Is RAM an indicator of this? Cache?? Or maybe both???

memory and cache. When a server is running MANY sites, cache efficiency drops way down. No way to really tell what process is going to need something next, you see. I use the firefox tabs to load my site. I have one cpanel tab open to the server-stats page. If the other tab (with my site/mambo admin) starts to behave slowly, I flip over and refresh the stats tab. Look at the memory / swap as well as the CPU. CPU up to 10 is OK (but not great) for a dual xeon. But swap over 1 is bad - especially if memory used is over 70% . This results in SLOW.

Quote:

2) Speaking of FreeBSD -- I am not familiar with any OS on servers. I only know of them by name and that most computer "geeks" favor FreeBSD over Redhat, while Redhat is the most commonly one used. I am not sure why -- but there appears to be a great trend over many forums where everybody seems to praise FreeBSD, yet WHY is Redhat more commonly used? Is it like the MAC and WINDOZ war where Mac is a better OS, but most software is made for windows, so people choose windows?

Really, don't worry about OS. Let them build you a dedicated "pass" server. That way they know how to support it. No reason for you to do otherwise unless you need to run some special specific processes.

Quote:

3) Based upon the advice form all of you, it's obvious Celeron is not the way to go. So let's say I start with a P4 (not dual) and 1024MB ram. How much can that kind of server handle according to traffic with a Mambo site? 500 users at once? 1000? 2000??

Yes. I know that is not super helpful, but it's going to depend on what those users are doing. I would say that 2000 or even more on mambo would be fine. Adding in downloads and other things that the server has to keep track of would lower that a bit.

Quote:

4) Going back to the RAM... why is Ram and Cache so important when using a site that queries a database?

because the server can keep the tables in memory, or rather the most used ones, and not have to go back to disk. Ram is faster than the fastest hard-disk any day of the week.

Quote:

Thanks for all the input. :-)

yer welcome!

blaze · December 23rd, 2004, 1:00 PM

Wow! Thanks again Big John! Your answers really helped me out. It's funny about the whole FreeBSD vs. Linux war. Whenever I ask the question to others about why one is better over the other, the most most common answer is "Redhat is better supported because it's the industry standard and most techies are trained with it." So I suppose I have my answer if Surpass understands Redhat better. I want whatever they are used to dealing with to help them manage as best as they can. So good call on the OS.

Quote:

Look at the memory / swap as well as the CPU. CPU up to 10 is OK (but not great) for a dual xeon. But swap over 1 is bad - especially if memory used is over 70% . This results in SLOW.

In this scenario, what would I have to do to decrease this load if I had my own dedicated? Would IM surpass and tell them? Or can I simply adjust it myself, and if so, how?

Finally, I know this is a difficult question to answer due to many factors, so I will try to elaborate on a hypothetical example. The sites we will design/host will be adult-related content. They will contain video clips, a gallery, etc. However, we estimate that only 10% will actually pose as a serious threat to our server environment using resources, not taking into account bandwidth or drive space issues.

Again, my only concern is database speed and keeping the main site (ours) in top shape and keeping it FAST. I know these servers can handle a lot of accounts -- but according to everybody's notes, it would appear that it would be best to perhaps have a separate server apart from our own site for hosting our clients. So what is a good "safe" number to keep the accounts under on a per server basis (mambo based sites) -- 50, 100, 200 or more? Again, please assume only 10% of these adult sites will generate a good amount of traffic on the server.

Thanks again!

blaze · December 23rd, 2004, 1:04 PM

This is a question for Emmanuel:

1) In the future, if I wanted to add another server, would surpass daisy-chain all the servers together? How does this work?

2) on the prices listed for upgrading... it says upgrade 1024MB RAM for such and such dollars a month. Is that 1024MB of RAM in addition to the 512MB I already get? Or is that really just an additional 512MB to make it 1024? I am confused by this.

Thanks!

December 22nd, 2004, 6:47 PM	#1 (permalink)
blaze Registered User Comfy Contributor Joined in Aug 2004 Lives in Las Vegas Hosted on pass11, pass12 187 posts Gave thanks: 0 Thanked 0 times	Dedicated Server Perfomance Questions.... Okay fellow surpassers -- some questions regarding going dedicated. Here's the deal: I am currently under the pass11 reseller plan and I am growing VERY tired of sharing the server... so I am seriously considering about the possibility of upgrading to dedicated. Actually I will -- just not sure when, as I need to be more sure about the system I need. My new company currently uses Mambo. We will be desigining packages based on the Mambo Core, hosting these sites, as well as developing a large directory from Mambo. So basically, Mambo will live and run on the server for about 90% of the sites we host (we don't have any clients yet.) Mambo is a CMS solution that uses MySQL and PHP for those who are not familiar. Now, since we are just starting out and do not have clients yet, I need to know what is important to have on dedicated server to make sure things run smoothly. Please take into consideration that there is NO TRAFFIC yet; however, we expect to start around 500 page views a day and will likely increase that number by 10x in 3 months. Now, I do not understand how servers function. But according to my numbers, would the smallest dedicated server (1.8 ghz celeron, 512MB ram) Surpass has be sufficient enough for us to start? Again, the traffic we expect is not that much, however, I am not sure what this server can handle if your site is Mambo and uses a lot of SQL queries (which ours will.) Not to mention, all the sites we will host will ALL be based on Mambo too. Currently Pass11 is a Dual Xeon with 1024MB of ram I believe... however, I am not satisified with access to the database and it seems VERY SLOW to me. I realize I am sharing this server and this could be why, but with having my own dedicated (1.8 ghz celeron) to myself, will there be THAT much of a major difference in speed and performance versus being on the dual xeon with about 400 other clients? I am not looking for a canned response such as "Play it safe -- better go with a Pentium and 1024MB of ram." That answer doesn't help me. I need to know "how much" this server (the 1.8 ghz celeron) can handle, why, and what is the best recommendation for me to "start" with. I don't wish to upgrade and max out performance if I don't need it -- because too many people do that already and just throw away money. I am also not interested in finding the "cheapest" solution either. Bottom line, I just want to better educate myself and understand what I need, why I need it and what are the most important things to consider based on the info I explained. That's all. Thanks and I appreciate all of your help! I would especially like to hear from some Surpass Techies that might be able to help me put together a good package. __________________ -- BlaZe -- ............ Last edited by blaze; December 22nd, 2004 at 6:59 PM..

December 22nd, 2004, 9:56 PM	#2 (permalink)
Emmanuel CTO, Surpass Hosting Super #1 Joined in Apr 2003 Lives in Florida 1,824 posts Gave thanks: 10 Thanked 134 times	Hey Blaze Glad to see you are looking into dedicated server. We operate dual xeons due to the fact they can handle more users and take a good beating around. However in your case a 1.8 celeron with 1024MB ram would be a good start. Mambo is pretty much mysql and php. those are the two elements which take up the most memory on a server. Later down the road if you decide the server needs to be upgraded then it is rather easy. We simply use the same drives from your 1.7 celeron and put them on the P4 2.4 and eventually xeon. Since you are an exsisting client I can waive the $99 setup fee so you can get that pricing structure. Let me know if you are ready to go for it. We will move all your sites on pass11 now for you so you will not have to do it. There will be no downtime involved since we will keep your sites on the reseller server until everything has propagated to your server. I personally promise you will be satisfied with your own server to you and your sites __________________ Emmanuel :: Surpass Hosting Network Admin http://www.SurpassHosting.com

December 22nd, 2004, 9:56 PM	#3 (permalink)
Bigjohn minor deity Super #1 Joined in Apr 2004 Lives in Georgia Hosted on XEON 7,394 posts Gave thanks: 28 Thanked 94 times	If you want to know how servers work, I'll be happy to provide some 'plain engish' explanations. The reason you want to start out with the pentium is upgradeability. You can start with one Xeon processor, and upgrade if needed. Upgrading is easier / better than replacing. Mambo has proven to be pretty efficient - there was an article posted once about a simulated 'slashdotting' of a very dynamic site, and it did outstanding. So page loads should be fine at the rate you're indicating. So, a single Xeon processor with 512mb ram would be a good, fairly efficient start. 1gb ram would be better, but initially you would not notice much of a difference at all. Regards, John __________________ Proud to be a Surmunity Mod! XEON PASS60 PASS61 Make a fundamental difference! My Sites: Curious about Brewing Beer? Join the community! >>>>> Some Change is GOOD! Keep your paycheck! Support the Fair Tax Get into an Art museum Victorian London It's your brain -*ON WEB* - mybrainhost.com (under development) What SHOULD Government do? Much Less than it Does!

December 23rd, 2004, 3:16 AM	#5 (permalink)
blaze Registered User Comfy Contributor Joined in Aug 2004 Lives in Las Vegas Hosted on pass11, pass12 187 posts Gave thanks: 0 Thanked 0 times	I appreciate all of you answers! Thank you kindly Emmanuel, Big John and OC12! Emmanuel, I appreciate you waiving the setup fee. I am definitely going dedicated shortly. I just need to educate myself a bit more on the responsibility of leasing and taking care of a dedicated server -- as I am pretty much clueless in the entire environment (ie: troubleshooting, OS, etc.) Yes, I know they are managed -- but I still would like to know "what" exactly is my responsibility when leasing it from you? By responsibility, I am speaking about the server itself -- not support for my clients, etc. Also, on the prices listed for upgrading... it says upgrade 1024MB RAM for such and such dollars a month. Is that 1024MB of RAM in addition to the 512MB I already get? Or is that really just an additional 512MB to make it 1024? Another important issue is Security. I have heard many people on forums talk about having a firewall on the server, although many recommend not having it be software based. Am I to assume this is hardware then?? If yes, then do you agree and how does surpass handle security from DDOS attacks for the server?? Or is that my responsibility?? OC12 and Big John: You guys bring up some good points about the differences between P4 and Celeron, so I have a few more questions for you if you don't mind. 1) My main concern is speed. Not the pipeline, but fast access to query the database. Mambo is known to be the best CMS at delivering octane boost when it comes to querying the data -- however, I hardly notice this because there are plenty of times when my site "hangs" or takes a long time before finally delivering/posting the data when editing. It is important for you to note that this is during TWILIGHT hours too -- when the web is often free from high loads of traffic on Pass11. Is RAM an indicator of this? Cache?? Or maybe both??? 2) Speaking of FreeBSD -- I am not familiar with any OS on servers. I only know of them by name and that most computer "geeks" favor FreeBSD over Redhat, while Redhat is the most commonly one used. I am not sure why -- but there appears to be a great trend over many forums where everybody seems to praise FreeBSD, yet WHY is Redhat more commonly used? Is it like the MAC and WINDOZ war where Mac is a better OS, but most software is made for windows, so people choose windows? 3) Based upon the advice form all of you, it's obvious Celeron is not the way to go. So let's say I start with a P4 (not dual) and 1024MB ram. How much can that kind of server handle according to traffic with a Mambo site? 500 users at once? 1000? 2000?? 4) Going back to the RAM... why is Ram and Cache so important when using a site that queries a database? Thanks for all the input. :-) __________________ -- BlaZe -- ............ Last edited by blaze; December 23rd, 2004 at 3:18 AM..

December 23rd, 2004, 5:54 AM	#6 (permalink)
Ehaanaes Forum Moderator Super #1 Joined in Aug 2003 Lives in Norway Hosted on Minerva 1,215 posts Gave thanks: 0 Thanked 0 times	1.) Speed on my dedi is great. I can set you up a small test-account if you want me to. So you can see surpass' real performance. (Going on a trip to my grandmother today. So i won't be online for another 10 hours or so though.. but PM me.) 2. RedHat is easier if you ask me. And it's like the industry standard. Works great on my server. But personally i prefer Gentoo Linux at home. 3. A P4 with 1Gig RAM should handle a LOT. Depends on the amount of queries. i guess. Suppose Emmanuel can provide you with a better answer. 4. Because the queries use the RAM to store the info or something. Don't have a good explanation right now. Too tired. It's just the way it is. __________________ Owner of Minerva and Server :: Beatiful P4's Surpass http://www.case-spider.com Winner of the Surpassies 2004 - Most Spirit. :bravo: Google = Friend!

December 23rd, 2004, 1:04 PM	#9 (permalink)
blaze Registered User Comfy Contributor Joined in Aug 2004 Lives in Las Vegas Hosted on pass11, pass12 187 posts Gave thanks: 0 Thanked 0 times	This is a question for Emmanuel: 1) In the future, if I wanted to add another server, would surpass daisy-chain all the servers together? How does this work? 2) on the prices listed for upgrading... it says upgrade 1024MB RAM for such and such dollars a month. Is that 1024MB of RAM in addition to the 512MB I already get? Or is that really just an additional 512MB to make it 1024? I am confused by this. Thanks! __________________ -- BlaZe -- ............

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