silent

That is a perfect example. Those “companies” manage their own spam filtering, not their hosts.

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pass16

Kayla

What do you suggest we do in order to ensure that our servers stay optimized so that the mail systems operate normally? Many hosts are now using the SCBL and SURBL to prevent incoming spam. This is a huge problem. Think of it in our shoes, what would you do. There are few options, few options that would result in absolutely everyone being satisfied.

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silent

I’m from Jersey and if I had my way every scumbag spammer would end up in 6 different dumpsters in Bayonne. Spam is a big problem – on many fronts. However, I personally know of no hosts that are doing this. Rather than ask me, why not ask your peer group what they are doing.

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pass16

Bigjohn

black lists are created to be used in consideration with other tools, like spam assassin, to determine if the mail is spam. They are not the only tool, nor should they be used arbitrarily. What Surpass has done is even more severe than what AOL have done... and we've all cried foul over mail from us (surpass customers) being bounced from AOL.

Why are more tests required? Because spam comes from MANY sources. In a dynamic-IP world, a machine that sends spam may have many IP addresses in a period of a few days or weeks... and all the "real, nice, clean" users that follow behind would be punished (as SURPASS IS DOING) wrongly.

Example - here is the Spam Assassin score from a message I got the other day. Note - it did NOT get 'bounced' by the RBL filters we're discussing here...
What does that mean? It means that the spam was sent from a user/server that is NOT in the RBL - but is true spam. Is that user/server in an RBL now? Maybe. But the "spammer" may already have moved on, and so an innocent person is blocked because of it.

The problem is that none of us, nor our clients, can control what the person who had the IP address before them (dynamic ISP) did with that address. This is why spam assassin uses more than one test, and more than one black list, before determining what is spam and what is not.

As a small reseller - a true one-man-show - this spam filtering is abhorent to me. It is a draconian measure that is adversly affecting my business.

My clients cannot connect to email at random and arbitrary intervals. They're not "tech aware" as I am, and so there are support calls and emails (some of which bounce back to them, increasing their frustration with ME...).

And the bottom line is that THEY DON'T CARE what my explanation is. To them, a service that they pay me for is JUST NOT WORKING.

Just as SURPASS does not like to go through the process of gettin the surpass mail servers de-listed (and it IS a long and arduous procedure - is it not???) from these RBL's, it's a process and procedure that is beyond many of our clients.... and their ISP's don't care either.

So, while it is true that SOME of surpass clients have benefited, most of us have not. And many - who are just hosting here, not reselling, may not even realize for some time that they've lost messages.

I have just emailed you (teq) with a message bounce... caused by your filtering. I'll post that example here too:
Note - the mail was not SENT from the 'blacklisted domain', it simply contained it. The message was a spam-assassin digest - a bundle of messages relating to "how to control spam"!!


Now, those of you who know me know that I have in depth knowledge of spam blocking (and lots of other things). You also know that I am a very patient and helpful person. My 3700 posts (16+ per day!) are not random and arbitrary rantings.

I am not here to SLAM teq or emanuel, patrickb or sam, or surpass in general - but I am going to say one more thing:

This is testing my patience very very much.

This procedure is wrong. It MUST stop.

Unless a better method can be found - one that does NOT bounce messages that I (and my wife, and my clients) must receive, one that does NOT bounce my clients for random and arbitrary reasons, I will loose all my customers. If that happens, I will be "out of business", and due to my 'under-employment' will not be able to afford to be here any more. In fact, refunding my current customers may actually make me miss my mortgage payment...

It's the truth, and it's very saddening to me.

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davo

Couldn't agree with you more, Bigjohn. Surpass is overstepping their bounds. But even more troubling, as silent has also stated, is the fundamental lack of communication to us clients. And you gotta love this from Sam:

You're right -- nothing's been announced. THAT'S THE PROBLEM.


What in God's name does "offical" mean to you people? If it's implemented on my server, it certainly is official.

We are guinea pigs. They are researchers. They have the power to alter our history with no regard to our pain. It's progress. It's science. It's inevitable.

IT'S BAD SCIENCE.

fwwebs5

Agree

David

From the way I understand everything regarding this issue....

Because something happens doesn't mean it's official. If something is made official, that is the way it will stick for good. This was apparently done to test things to see if it worked.

When servers get so much spam that they end up slowing down and/or getting knocked out, people complain. When Surpass tries to do something to see if it will work, people complain. Seems like a vicious cycle of never ending crap. But, how else would they know if it worked without testing it in a working enviroment?

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c0c0c0

Adding My 2 cents in. Gmail has been blocked by spamcop at least twice. I think that the user should have control over what mail gets blocked through the mail servers. I have mail forwarded from gmail to my domian and then my SK2 recieves this mail. I am not able to recieve my messages from my gmail account because of this.

I was going to respond to this in the previous thread(s) but by the time I got time to respond they were already locked! I didn't want to start another thread about this, so now that someone has rehashed an issue I am not happy about, here I am.

Also I have opened a ticket about this as well requesting the filtering be removed or the software changed to allow us the customers control so we can allow our legetimate mail through.

http://desk.surpasshosting.com/index...w&_i=JBR-12055

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David

How does the blacklist work exactly? As in, what do you see that you end up inputting into the system? The thought is basically, if it's something that isn't too difficult, what about giving access to the list and allowing customers the ability to do it themselves, for what they want blocked and what they don't, depending on the individual customer's needs?

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